That's the Arduin legacy!

The ideas in the book fed your imagination, and the roughness of the presentation invites you to participate in it. When games are too seamless and polished, you don't have as much fun making it your own. That's an extremely difficult idea to get across in a review.

I do want to write up a more formal review once I have had a chance to digest the entirety (there is a lot there), but I also have the benefit of having seen some of it before.

since we are into random thoughts, that makes this easier

At it's core, this system is a change in vector, reinforcing role play, and is a move away from roll play (Monty Halls of the old days - see monster, kill monster, collect treasure, congratulate each other). There are systems for role playing faith, role playing social skills and contacts, role playing item and object creation (magical and non-magical), role playing spirit interactions, the ability to customize your character to be different than any other character in the whole world from a variety of aspects, and an unending set of options for role playing everything your heart desires.

I think for people who are used to "point and click" style character generation, AE will be a shock to your system. It aint simple if you try to do everything at once... Monty did put suggestions that make it easy, just leave all the stuff you are not used to out for the time being

It would be my guess that EmpCho made the systems that EmpCho would want (great artist create for themselves), and I say that because I happen to think it is great!! ;D The system is capable of managing any level of complexity you are ready to put into it, and I think they did a fantastic job of creating a mechanic system that is intuitive and so far has accommodated all the things I have been able to think of.

Arduin Eternal is once again the quantum leap forward for role playing games that the original Arduin was in the mid 70's. The amount of flexibility the game provides while still bounding it in a set of mechanics allows you to create anything you want - usually, at this point you say "within the confines of the game", but you don't need to here, the game accommodates it. That is the cool part

Hopefully people see the opportunity that this book presents instead of trying to compare it to what they are used to or what other companies have produced. AE is in a different category... They should look around the perception of complexity to find the system they want... just leave out anything that you don't like or seems too complex - for the short term - you will come back and pick it up once you recognize the need that it satisfies ;D

AE is a thread in a larger weave, and is an amazing addition to my collection. AE combined with the World Book of Khaas, and the upcoming critter compendium make a strong fabric, and I anticipate adding dungeons, magic items, and more monsters over time to finish out the tapestry...

Thanks Monty, Dave, and George, you made my Christmas

-swc

Scott,

You forgot the Morghoul...how could you forget the morghoul after all we went through to bug Monty about it

At any rate, I'm pretty much on the same wavelength as Scott and don't know if I can quite add anything else to further cement the foundation that AE has given us. We the players and GM's on this site and those who play Arduin to begin with are generally old timers or at least experienced in the art of role playing. We understand the complexities of the game better than most and perhaps tend to not be bothered with such labels as complex, or inadequately organized, because we understand the concept of "through Complexity comes Simplicity"

AE has given us the potental to achieve the acuality of what role playing is all about...a platform to passively interact within the content of a world, but tell a story both entertaining and individual that will long be remembered by those fortunate enough to interact with the character or within the realm of play.

There is alot of information and I can see it being complex to new players not familiar with the concept of "thinking outside the box" But I agree that this version leaves no excuses to what you can do with the World of Khaas. It grows on you like leaps and bounds and the mechanics no longer illustrates the desire to "point and shoot" gaining treasure and experieince for the sole purpose gaining power, this is now secondary, even tertiary. AE has a simple underlying philosophy towards RPG, that is to tell a story.

This, of course, is how I look at things and would like to think that many gamers feel the same way about this game we have chosen to indulge in. We seek a creative medium for an outlet, one that allows us to tell a story fantastical and awe-inspiring to others. AE has given us the tools for this, I almost feel like we shouldn't let it down, or ourselves

John

John,

The bar has been set very high over the past few years by other publications.

AE simply was done amateurishly when it comes to proofreading, editing and lastly layout.

The book was held up for a year by artwork, it easily could have been professionally edited and an index created in that long period of time. Some simple charts or flow sheets could have been made up to be published online so that character creation would be smoother and simpler.

I am a long time Arduin player and I am familiar with all sorts of systems and rules and no complexity ever puts me off. I am also a professional writer/editor/proofreader and offered my services to help with a system I love. I offered it for free or for store credit, whatever they wanted. I worked for two years as a writer/photographer and eventually editor of a small newspaper and proofread a lot of books for Flames of War for Battlefront.

So I can professionally state my opionion on the rulebook. That being said, I love it and will eventually buy it for both of my daughters. I already bought one for myself.

Things Empcho must do to help make this product successful is to immediately post a pdf index on the website and links to it from here and any other Arduin groups. This is a must to be considered professional. Making a mistake is normal and everyone does it, how you address the mistake after it becomes known is what separates a Great company from a good company or a dismal company.

Another thing Empcho needs to do as soon as possible is to post up some semblance of a walkthru including page numbers of how to roll up a complete character. Stop trying to get around this by saying just use what you want and leave the rest out. That is BS and does not answer the problem at hand for those of us, myself included that would like help navigating this incredibly complex book while trying to setup new characters for ourselves and our gaming groups.

I have read the entire book front to back twice already and currently loaned it out to someone so they can as well. It has been very well received by everyone that has looked at it. The big issue is how long it would take to setup new characters, because of the lack of an index and a helpful guide to assist those who need it.

The work done on this book is brilliant, the finishing touches were just missing. So I ask that they be done ASAP online so that those of us who need help can get it.

Thanks and I look forward to the Beastiary/Monster book, and once again offer my help if it is needed.

chris

Chris,

Yah, no arguement on editing and such, I'm sure constrictions were in place when they were at that stage and hopefully the next printing or so will correct such issues.

My understanding on such things indexes, flow charts and such were to be done at the site as downloads.

I generally can create a conceptual character in about 20 minutes. Admittedly, this comes from lots of practice I can see a visual, step-by-step chart to accomplish this for those that find it daunting.

John

Unfortunately,

I asked my group to be playtesters for this but none of them bothered to fill out the forms in time except myself and my daughter. So we weren't part of the playtesting. So for the groups that tested it, I imagine they can make characters quite fast.

With an index it would be much quicker I think. Allowing you to skip forward to exact pages that you needed to set your character up. I have to teach this to around 12-16 players over a few months as each comes and goes so I need to do this mostly at once on a game night when I have 5-6 players at a time.

With a single book this becomes daunting, without an index or flow chart it becomes nigh impossible within the time frame allowed for a nights gaming session.

So at this point we have looked at it, but no one, myself included has made a character. We have other games and systems we can play and use with our oh so valuable gaming time.

I love the book and I imagine I will eventually switch to the system completely. It has pretty much everything I want or need in a system and does a lot of the stuff I already do but does it better.

It is just a bear to grapple with from the start with a group of players all at once. It is not possible to meet up individually with most of the group which is what I would do under normal circumstances. Since there is just one book it can only be loaned out a bit at a time until someone else buys another book. I bought $400 worth of gaming books this christmas for family so buying more isn't an option at this time.

I just hope Empcho jump on this and get the things needed up on the website as soon as possible.

chris

Great to hear there's an index on the way, positive step forward.

I'd like to re-iterate Chris (Ogre's) comments on proofreading. I've read a ton of technical docs and helped improve them as a supportability engineer. I'd suggest setting a format for turning in corrections as we'd all like to help. Perhaps printing#/page#/line# for tracking the defect and a short correction or rewording input would harness the feedback into a more coherent form.

Another suggestion is to consider extracting the system mechanics to a generic rules set. For those who don't run Arduin itself often (just as a destination through the nexus gates) it allows easier adaptation and teaching. A short explanation on building cultures/mysteries/etc. that aid game play and don't overbalance play could also help train GM's in the system mechanics.

Overall I applaud the labor of love this represents. Even if you stay with Arduin II and bolt on some of the new features it's a useful source. The mechanics may grow on me with time ;-]

I had a chance to peruse the AE book for a few days and attempted some character creation. While I will be playing Arduin soon, it won't be this version, but I wanted to tinker with the new rules, as I've never played either version before. I didn't successfully finish creating any of the four characters I started, for a variety of reasons... came close on the Techno, but the skill list became overwhelming and no longer fit on the character sheet.

I saw many instances of things that seemed to be missing, but were referenced in the book, but I won't go over those. The two main confusing things I ran into were these:

References to a Wizard profession (the Elf race section). There is no Wizard profession... does this mean Mage?

The process of adding a Path at character creation is not clearly defined and greatly confounded me. Do you spend all skill points (Core/Favored AND general) before applying the Path, or do you apply the path first, and then spend all points? When reading the Profession sections, getting access to a path seems to be the last thing you do (using profession choices), but in the creation outline, choosing a Profession/Path is often listed as the same step. If you can spend Core/Favored skills after choosing a Path, doesn't this mean you will possibly have more Favored skills to spend points on as Profession-favored skills stay favored? This might be... abusable... by taking a Profession that gains lots of skill ranks (Thief or Techno) and then picking a Path to spend those points on. It's probably not a huge thing in the long run, but it's something I've seen in other games I've run. Obviously an on-the-ball DM can prevent this.

I think that highlighted part is where I got confused. The character sheet I downloaded from the main site has an entry for Profession Skill AND one for Path Skill, implying they both stay around. Also, from the same download section, there is a sample character (an elf Warrior/Forester if I recall... last one in the document) that has both skills listed. The Warrior Profession skill does has a skill value, but I couldn't make sense of how it was determined (average of the 3 Warrior skills was much higher).

Since there are spaces on the character sheet for both profession and path skills, it gives the impression that both skills can coexist, even if only one of them is advancing.

Also, the rules about switching paths/professions, with the EPS cost to retain the secrets gained, seems to indicate that they're strictly limited to one each, if one can indeed be tracking both a profession and a path skill.

In the case of the forrester in the example, the character is a dedicated forrester, and only the path skill will advance, as the core skills advance, but if the character still has the "warrior: 14" on the sheet, is it still possible for him to buy a warrior secret of proficient or trained level (assuming he meets any other prerequisites), while following the forrester path?

Or, might the player just as well erase the warrior skill from the sheet?

Here's another question:

When switching professions or paths after creating the character, there's the 5 or 10 EPS cost to open the new skill, and the 2 EPS per tier per secret to keep any of the secrets, but the examples given don't appear to apply the 2 EPS per tier rule when first taking a path from one's starting profession. It's there in "crossing to a new profession", "crossing to a new path", and "leaving a path", but there's no mention of "leaving a profession".

Is the first path taken (in play) after the first profession an exception to the rule, or an omission, or have I missed something?

That is, if your starting warrior had taken a profession secret, would he have paid the EPS penalty to keep that secret when becoming a forrester, or is the penalty ONLY paid when or if he leaves the forrester path, or decides to become a mage, or something?

My reading has been slow and casual, but I finally noticed something last night that made me see the purpose of keeping the previous profession skill ranks. Some of the secrets call for checks of the profession/path skill itself, and if one of those profession secrets is retained, it will be necessary to know the last score before the change. It had seemed, up to that point, that the profession skill ranks were only used to satisfy prerequisites. Maybe I'll stumble across even more applications of profession skills as I wander through the book.

In the case of returning to a profession, since the profession skill is calculated from the core skills, wouldn't the old profession skill be recalculated anew upon returning, allowing a large increase if the core skills have gotten plenty of use in the meantime? Does the part about taking over from where you left off mean something more?




Thanks. That did help. Applying the costs in the way you describe is pretty obvious and sensible, but I was seeing a gap in the language that seemed to leave a loophole. A careful reading of the "Taking a Path" paragraph on p.205 makes it clear, too.

Thus far, I have made two characters; a Dwarven Warrior and an Orc Savage. The first time around for the Dwarven Warrior it took me several hours to figure everything out. The Orc Savage went much faster. The basics of character creation are relatively straightforward once you sit down and just do what you need to do to fill out the character sheet. Next on my list is a High Elf Mage.

Just finished the High Elf Mage. I must say that the character creation process is fun and inspires my imagination. I haven't felt this way about a rpg since I was 12. The options are inspiring rather than restricting. The tone and themes of the game and setting are just what I am looking for.

I definitely agree with the above. The richness of the system, combined with the huge extent to which it is tied into the world of Arduin makes it really special. It is that rare thing: a game system that is specific in its focus and wonderfully general in its capabilities.

I can't wait for the Bestiary and some magic items. If that material is anywhere near as thorough as the material in the core rulebook, this will be by FAR the most complete version of Arduin ever created.

Certainly, due to the complexity of the game, it's audience will always be niche even for an RPG. But, once all of the core materials are released, I feel like that niche is out there and the game can really get a chance to grow.

I just finished the Human Thief. One of the things I noticed was that the character creation system allowed me to start creating a character with no idea of concept other than race and profession. Even the profession was negotiable if the die rolls on attributes were severely skewed. For example, my human thief concept going into it was a noble/aristocratic ner do well with a pompous attitude. However, when I was selecting racial abilities, I found myself making selections for a completely different character concept. Each choice gave definite flavor to the growing character concept. This process continued through the selection of cultural influences. When I finished selecting skills, I had a fully fleshed out character with quirks, a personality, and a history. It was like a character in a story taking over and making the author write the story the character demands. Very cool.

As an aside, the human is as good a starting character as any of the other races as a result of their 4 racial choices and 5 cultural influence choices. (Well maybe not as good as a Phraint or Deodanth when it comes to combat.)